SearchRecent comments
Democracy LinksMember's Off-site Blogs |
Religious expression in schools and rulesThe big issue in relation to the Auburn School girl who won the right to wear the Mantoo is something that I feel is interesting. Anita Quigley did an article today in the Daily telegraph and I tend to agree with her. I wrote this email to her today. I just want to congratulate you on your article on the real issues behind the Mantoo. My daughter who is in Year 9 in a Public School tells me that the uniform doesn’t suit her beliefs and feelings - she hates it. She is an individual and she resents dressing in school uniform as it makes her feel like she is in Prison and that she is a picture copy of every other student doing time. It really bothers her as an individual and it stifles her. She feels she is not afforded the respect that she deserves as an individual whilst she is in a silly uniform that makes her look like a young kid in a stifled school puppet dress. If the public system is so into accepting difference, then why do they want them all to dress, learn, and look the same. It seems that the Muslim community always seems to have a special set of rules for them. I wonder what would happen if my daughter put on her jeans and jumper and went off to school demanding an exception because of her strong belief in her individuality and rights. She often asks me how I would feel if I walked into a building and everywhere you turned everybody was dressed exactly the same as you. As per usual she has a point! I believe that it is about power and respect. This Auburn school girl now has the power and with it respect. Now the other Muslim girls will feel the pressure. Soon we might all have to wear Mantoo's. The rest of the non-Muslim school kids have to take their place in the paddock with all the other sheep despite the fact that the school uniform rules dont suit them or their beliefs. Of course I do believe that some sort of happy medium would be good. Western girls are too uncovered and Muslim girls are too covered up. Why do we only know how to function at the extremes? I wonder what other people on this forum think?
|
User login |
Two points
Jolanda, your post concerns me. There's two main points I wish to make.
Do you really think its fair to parallel your daughter's need for individuality with another's need to be loyal to her family religion and culture?
The second thing is that I think the crucial thing for your child is that she is empowered to be who she is regardless of her circumstances. I was also a High School kid who hated uniforms and argued eloquently (I thought) in speaking competitions against them. I don't think I've changed my mind either, but I do know that if I had allowed that to mean I couldn't be exactly who I bloody well was, I would have been a social cripple.
In her own way the Muslim girl may face the same need as she moves through adolescence. Just because she is wearing a cultural dress does not mean she too is not struggling for identity and individuality.
For the most beautiful fictional study of identity and hope emerging from an institutionally homogeneous (and utterly repressive) situation, I'd recommend Solzhenitsyn's One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich. Adapting is not surrendering.
Discrimination etc
Hey Hamish and all, I feel for Jolanda and her situation. It may seem minor to others but it is a big issue for Jolanda and her family. I'm just sorry we can't do anything to change things for her, and all the other people who suffer because of narrow views, bigotry, discrimination etc.
I really detest the way our society cringes if anyone mentions the M word. I detest all religions and see no difference between any of them. We are free to trash Christian religions and no one would say a word but other subjects are taboo. I do however understand both the legal and other problems such public discussion brings with it and wish to ask that all religious discussion be left out of this site.
I know that makes me anti-free speech etc but I don't care about that. To me religion is and should be a private thing with people free to make their own choices and believe in whatever deity appeals to them. Provided they don't keep using those religions for other reasons. Both religions mentioned are being used for political and other purposes and that simply denies the beliefs they supposedly bring with them.
I am also sick to death of cries of bigotry, discrimination and the like. Every one of us goes through various forms of discrimination every day. I could name them all but you all should be aware of how many minority groups we are all identified as or with because of our appearance, our family, our home, our health, our attitudes and so on.
Enough of that rubbish. How about we try and accept each other without resorting to name calling, pigeon holing and accusations. Any takers?
Re: Discrimination etc
Hi Pegasus, I don't think any site which seeks to protect/enhance democratic principles can be free of religious discussion.
Religion plays an enormously important role in the lives of a great many people along with our social and political beliefs.
I am not religious and I confess to having had harsh things to say about extremist elements of all of the three great montheistic religions, Judaism, Islam and Christianity. However I also respect each and every person's right to their own particular faith.
I just wish they would all practice what they preach!
Political inquisition
Agree Gus and John
Hey Gus and John, of course I agree with you about not being able to avoid religion. I'm writing about it for starters and I don't want to. Just dreaming really.
Although Gus has shown me the light and I think I can see the answer (Gus, just whisper the faith re not paying tax please).
Like you John, I don't care what anyone else chooses to believe in but why do they have to misuse it and shove it down everyone's throat? It's just such hypocrisy. Turn the other cheek? What for, so they can talk to the other ear usually.
Apart from the obvious connection with war etc what I dislike about religion most is that it divides people, families, countries, marriages, children from parents. And why? Because somebody a thousand or two thousand years ago wrote some bloody fairy tales to strengthen their position in their short life. That's it.
No, regretably we can't avoid it. Rather we have to oppose it's use in politics and trying to sculpt society. Maybe I should move to France. Mon dieu!
I just can't stand the name calling any time someone says what they think. It's so easy to cry "discrimination" and immediately the person expressing themselves is surrounded by enemies. That's not anything to do with freedom of speech of democracy or any other principle. It's just bullying, nothing less, unfortunately enforcable by law in certain cases. Just not if you are Australian, white and Christian.
I'm a white Australian male, descended from who knows where in Europe. Do you think I don't know about discrimination people? We all do. Let's try working together rather than finding chinks in each others flimsy armour.
Don't forget the whisper Gus, I'm in.
Fair!
Yes Hamish I do think that it is fair to parallel my daughters need to be loyal to her own individuality with the other girls need to be loyal to her families religion and culture. This uniform issue causes my daughter extreme distress as she feels bad in it but she does as she is told because it's the rules. Why is religion regarded as more important than a persons individuality, feelings and emotions?
My daughter is empowered to be who she is and that is why she complains and argues about this uniformity and this desire for the system to produce robots and it bothers her that there are different rules for different people.
If this girl can get an exemption on something that isn't really required by her religion, it's just a preference, then why not my daughter for something that really isn't required by the Department and that means just as much to her?
provide a link please Jolanda
It's hard to give comment without being able to read about the original case; if you want the opinions of others here, this would be helpful.
Until I have seen the original article, I will limit my comment to this - statements like "soon we will all have to wear a Mantoo" and stating that Muslims get 'special treatment' are both unfounded and have a heavy whiff of bigotry about them. In fact there's ample evidence to show that Muslims would not want non-believers to adopt their dress, and that the only special treatment they receive in our society is being on the receiving end of institutionalised discrimination and verbal & physical abuse - all of which has increased markedly in Australia since 9/11 and the Bali Bombing.
Respect and Mantoo
Oh, and Miriad I forgot to say what I meant by my comment "Soon we will all have to wear a Mantoo".
I believe that as individuals we do not have real rights - we can be treated unfairly and with disrespect, discriminated against without anybody having to take your rights into consideration or anybody having answer so, therefore, if a Mantoo gives you the right to do what you want supported and protected - then I want one!
So if it is shown that if you wear a Mantoo you have more rights then it's going to appear to be in a persons best interest if they don the Mantoo. Remembering that Mantoos are at the extreme of a Religion.
Link to article
Hi Myriad. Sorry, this is the link to Anita Quigley's article in the Daily Telegraph, Hidden agenda behind mantoo victory.
I just assumed that most people would know about it since it is on all the radio stations and in all the newspapers.
You see the thing is that I agree that there is discrimination against Muslims and Lebanese and other cultures and types. My children are of Lebanese background and they look it and they have been unfairly discriminated against and no they are not Muslim, but mostly people dont ask. If they look of middle eastern appearance, and they do, well then they are looked down on and its an excuse to not treat them fairly.
What my problem is that in order for our Government to make it look like they dont discriminate they make the type of decisions like the one in relation to the Mantoo and that upsets people. It creats a rift. There are different rules for Muslims and that is wrong. They come to Australia and should adapt.
My parents came to Australia over 38 years ago for a better life and they have always taught us that if you come to another country you come with the understanding that you accept their rules and culture and you come because you want to live like them - not change them.
Hi Jolanda
I'm glad you acknowledge that Muslims and other minorities in Australia often get a very bad run; and I'm saddened to sense that by the sounds of it, your own family has been on the receiving end in some form or another.
The article you linked to is an opinion piece, and raises some good points with regard to women's rights and fundamentalist Islamic practice; however Quigley neglects to mention that there is a very vocal, large and intelligent Muslim feminist movement, most of which openly embraces their traditional attire. I also don't take kindly to Quigley's asumptions that she knows what is best for this particular 17 year old. It's not a little ironic to me that denying this girl the right to wear the Mantoo would actually disempower her, not the other way round.
There is a complex intersection between women's rights, religion and culture with this particular incident, one that is not so easily unpicked as a much more straightforward issue with regard to whether children attending public schools should wear a uniform.
Your main beef here seems to boil down to your daughter hates wearing a school uniform, and why she has to when Muslim girls are allowed to wear traditional attire. I think Hamish's advice is spot on. If your daughter really feels so strongly about it, here is a perfect example of another young woman who took on the system and got it changed. I also note from other articles I perused on this story that Muslims were proactively involved in negotiating dress codes with the NSW Dept. of Education. There is certainly also an avenue for parents with children who feel like yours does about school uniforms to take up the issue via parent's organisations.
If anything, this case highlights the need perhaps for a more diverse school dress code in NSW, and that is probably the best opportunity your daughter has for making her case. Perhaps this is why over a hundred other students signed in support of Yasmina.
I find your comment about immigrants in Australia should have to adapt grossly simplistic. Adapt does not mean conform; and the reality is that apart from basic human & legal rights & responsibilities, there are in fact differents sets of rules for different groups in our society - that is the difference between a diverse, tolerant society, and an assimilative one. A simple example - I as an athiest can take a non-religious oath in court to tell the truth, a christian can swear on the bible, and a Muslim can swear on the Koran. A different set of 'rules' for each group, but with the same result.
Understanding
Myriad, thanks for your understanding post. Of course there are parts of Anita Quigleys article that I dont 100% agree with and I really do believe and understand that there are Muslim women groups who would want to wear attire that covers their body. My own daughter is very conservative and likes to cover up and keep private. I dont think my daughter would have the energy to fight the system about the uniform, she is already fighting the system for unfair treatment and she knows what she is up against and she is full up.
My problem is that I feel that we dont have equal rights. Those who are seen as minorities seem to get more protection and rights especially in relation to issues to do with their race.
What I mean by adapt is basically join in. I believe that if you come to a country that is already established you join in and you add to it. Not try to change it.
I guess the question is "When was Australia established and what is seen as Australia?" When we get that confusion fixed up at least we will all know where we stand.
Symbol of sexual discrimination
As a woman it disturbs me to see girls in Australian schools wearing muslim dress that hides their bodies and faces. It is a potent advertisment for sexual discrimination.
We have worked hard to enjoy the equality we now have and it is important that we never relinquish Australia's committment to women's liberty.
Such dress also reflects badly on Australian men, for it promotes the misconception that if women fail to cover themselves to such an extent, they turn into uncontrollable sexual predators.
The right to be different
Hi Jolanda, I understand your concerns and I am not trying to attack you, however your problems with people of the Islamic faith seem to be based more on religious intolerance than on the individual's right of freedom of expression.
If you asked every person in Australia to tell you what was appropriate dress for school you would get twenty million different answers.
Vive la difference!
Faith
Dear John. You are so wrong, I accept peoples faith no matter what it is until they try to push it onto me.
What I have a problem with is with people wanting to change the Australian way of life in ways that the majority of Australians don't agree with just so that it fits better with their views and way of life. It wouldnt' matter what faith or religion it was or is. In my family we have Catholic, Muslim, Jehovah's, and those that couldn't give damn. Everybody is equally welcome in my home and treated with respect, that is, as long as they dont come into my home wanting to make me change in ways that I am not comfortable doing so. Does that make me racist or guilty of religious intolerance?
yes it does
Yes it does mean you are being racist because the Australian way of life is the Aborigine's way of life.
They have been here for 40,000 years. They are the Australians of this Great South Land. We are immigrants and thieved it off them, and we whites and the rest should not be here.
See Jolanda, everyone's fact is someone's opinion and everyone's opinion is someone's fact.
There is no point that anyone can win any argument.
As someone else said on the board because we have 20million people we have 20million opinions.
BUT, we could play a game of soccer and have an all-in racial brawl that was brought here from Europe somewhere that no other Europian is interested in unless they play soccer and want to break bus windows.
BUT again we could play rugby league and just smash each other's heads in of the Cockroaches and the Cane Taods in the State of Origin between NSW and Qld. Let's move the State border.
Re: yes it does
Yes Len, what has been done to the Aboriginies is a disgrace and the level of Education that they recieve is designed to keep them at a level of poverty and without power. I fully support any move to help them regain their dignity and help them to get out of the situation that they are in. I believe that we should have a public fund raiser like they did for the Tsunami victims to compensate the Aboriginal people and help them. I for one would be happy to contribute so as to help them realise and understand that many Australians do believe that they have been hard done by and they deserve better to help them realise that we do respect them and understand the situation that they are in.
When my parents came out to Australia, Australia was looking for immigrants and it was being pushed as the land of opportunity, it wasn't presented to them as Aboriginal land. They had no idea. Had they have known we wouldn't have come as my parents wouldn't have wanted to intrude on the Aboriginies or live the Aboriginal way. We have all been lied to etc. I still dont think that it means that you are racist.
Fund raiser?
Hey Jolanda, let's get a bit of perspective on the aboriginal issue please.
Were they disadvantaged by the marauders? Yes. Are they still? Yes.
Why Jolanda? Why are they still disadvantaged? They have had more money thrown in their direction than any other racial group in this country. Over a longer period. Why don't they change? Is it because they don't get the money because their so called representatives misuse and misdirect it? That's my impression, together with alcohol. There are also certainly many who still don't regard them as people and that is the hidden agenda of Australia although not so hidden in the outback.
I've been in the casinos in Darwin and Alice and seen the biggest spenders at the roullette tables. They are not white. That money comes from the taxpayer to "compensate" for past ills and deprivation but it goes directly to the casino operators. Guess who?
I lived in the NT for about half my life Jolanda and I was raised to be prejudiced and I was. Why? Because all the aboriginal people I saw, met, went to school with etc did exactly what I was taught to dislike and fear. I didn't understand their lives until I was much older and had visited the remote areas where poverty is an aspiration.
I feel strongly for them but I have also got the idea from the outback people that they really don't want anything to do with our society. Neither do I really. They have been forced into it and that is to their detriment. The conditions they live in shocked me. But so did the behaviour of aboriginal men both there and in the towns and cities.
My feeling is that their culture and race are very divided as is Australia. There are those that want the money our society has but they don't want to share it and help all the others. Just like our politicians. Then there are those who would like to live like they know their ancestors did. But they aren't permitted to do so.
They don't need money as such Jolanda but of course it would help if it went where they actually want it and not wasted on huge beareaucracies and their hangers on.
I don't know the answer but it certainly isn't raising more money for the tip of the iceberg. Perhaps it's more about you and I going to visit them and talk to them. Investigate their beliefs, give them confidence in themselves. I don't know. Perhaps someone should ask them rather than the city aboriginals. And actually listen.
I dont agree
I do believe that money will help make a difference for Aborigines as it can raise their living standards and their feelings of self worth.
However, instead of throwing the money at the Aboriginal people, it should be given to them with respect and in a manner that is meant to make amends and in a lump sum so that they can put it towards buying something to call their own. You dont throw money at people unless you want them to scramble!
I can understand how the Aborigines came to be where they are today as I know how difficult it is to prosper when you are being conitinously discriminated against and treated unfairly in order for the Government to cover up.
I don't agree?
Hey Jolanda, what don't you agree with? That money can fix things?
It's been done, over and over. I can't say it has ever been targetted properly and I thought I made that resonably clear. But it hasn't helped to date as we have given them money with our ideas attached. Here's some money for houses when they don't like houses etc etc.
I think you missed my basic point which I can understand as I didn't state it clearly.
There are many different groups of Aboriginals and very few of them get on with each other. They cannot be treated as one race as they all have differences. It would be like deciding all Indians, or Americans are of one group and can be helped in the same way.
In Australia there are more tribes than you could number, some very small and isloated. They speak different languages for starters and their commonn language is probably whatever English they have been forced to learn.
In blunt terms there are also big differences between the groups in towns and cities and the groups that live on settlements or whatever the latest buzz word is.
The settlement people are of full aboriginal descent and are generally the nicest, calmest and placid people you could hope to meet. They are so nice and friednly despite many negative encounters with the rest of Australia. In the NT these settlements expel members of their group who they consider " bad " and eject them from the community.
The ejected people are rejected for many reasons but the main one is alcohol abuse and the effects on the other people. Most settlements are alcohol free in theory but not always in practice. Generally though the elders in these groups try to weed the troublemakers out for peace and harmony amongst the bulk of the group.
Where do the ejected people go? They hang around the towns in the NT. They sleep in the open and drink whatever they can find. And they usually end up in jail or dead as white society rejects them as well.
The ejected people are what most NT visitors see and experience and it is less than pleasant. They are no different from whites who drink at that level though but those white people usually have somewhere to live until they get to the bottom. So we see aboriginals usually drunk, aggressive and begging in the streets and judge all aboriginals by them which is unfair but you can only judge by your experiences so visitors assume what they are told is true of all.
Not so. The settlement people as I said are probably happier than most of us in our comfortable suburbs etc because they are content to live as they always have, as much as they can with whites imposing a range of restrictions and laws on them that is. By this I am not saying they enjoy the low age mortality and other diseases. Of course they don't.
We see aboriginal people talking in the media claiming to represent all of their people but they cannot as there are so many differences and customs.
The settlements frequently resemble wastelands and no attempt to change that has been succesful or probably intended to be.
It's rather condescending of us to assume they want to live our lives and assume that money is the answer. It isn't, as money causes most of what we dislike in our society.
I don't know the answer. They probably do and have probably said it over and over to deaf ears.
Of course there are many who live in cities as well but they are usually segregated into lower income areas ( let's call them slums ) and expected to battle their way out of there. Some do but it's a bloody hard battle and no one really wants them to succeed. certainly not the people they leave behind and rarely those who don't really accept them in our society.
They are just people like all of us, ejected or not. Just people.
We seem to agree?
Pegasus, we seem to be agreeing. Of course its not just money that they need, they need to regain their dignity and feel valued and worthy. We can say sorry until the cows come home and yes there are those for whom it will be enough and those that are happy living as they do but until the Aborigines that are involved and living in areas that are run down and crippled with alcohol and crime are helped and supported to turn around and brought up to an acceptable standard nothing will change. Change of attitude can help but you need money to fix the broken down buildings and to create jobs to change the attitude. We also need Laws that are enforceable and discipline that is fair and consistent. Remember that I did say that you cannot just throw money at the Aboriginal people, they need understanding, support and direction but they also need power to make their own decisions based on their own circumstances and need. They need to see that we respect their decisions and I think that most people will do the right thing if it is presented the right way.
I believe that environment and living conditions have a huge influence on how people feel and how people feel has a huge influence on how they act.
Aboriginal people are not the only people suffering from problems caused by alcohol and welfare dependence, you are right. What about people from the West?, they are constantly having to deal with issues in relation to negative attitudes, unemployment, youth's drinking, crime etc, and it is caused by a minority group but everybody from the West gets painted with the same brush and because nothing is done to fix it the problem grows – the minorities suddenly start looking like the majority. Manly has a reputation for alcohol abuse amongst its youth and crime is following etc. Country kids are also said to be big drinkers. Its epidemic. What has happened to the Aboriginal people is happening to white people too and its growing as the Laws are not worth the paper they are written on - we have dropped standards to such a low state and we are going backwards.
It’s a high level EDUCATION and raising standards that is the only thing that is really going to turn things around for the future generations! Aboriginal people are being educated to the lowest possible level and standard - the system has dropped standards across the board in the hope that society doesn’t notice and in the hope that they wont care. Those at the top are not really affected they just have less competition and the money to buy their way anyway. Problem is that more children of all colours, shapes and sizes are getting caught up in the trap as more and more children come from disadvantaged homes and/or are attending disadvantaged schools and they are being neglected. They get a very poor level of education, they often get caught up in alcohol, drugs, welfare dependence and even crime. I believe the system segregates and we are all paying the price. Sure kids from rich families get caught up in alcohol etc. too but they usually have money to fall back on and support to help them get through it. At the end of the day money makes the difference as to how people see you and what help you can get and the levels that you can reach.
What our children need - all our children - is a good high level of education and discipline that is served with respect and in a manner that is fair. This type of education is needed in the home and at school. I personally would like to see all children succeed. It's in our best interest as a community if everybody is well educated and happy as when people are happy and doing well they are less likely to want to do harm.
Sorry guys, I will not lend money for alcohol...
Re: We seem to agree
Jolanda, I agree that every child deserves the best education and the best of opportunities that we, as a society, can provide.
I'm not so sure about elitist education for gifted children however.
My own son managed to struggle through the public school system and to attend university on Austudy (with the limited financial help his working class parents could provide).
The fact that he is now a member of Mensa and doing his masters degree in geology leads me to believe the public system can't be all bad.
I don't want to get into a protracted debate with you over this issue. I'm merely making an observation based on personal experience.
Elitist
John, this isn’t a battle – its just a discussion. You say that you believe that “every child deserves the best education and the best opportunities that we as a society can provide
Re: Elitist
Money to Aborigines
How many thousands of billions of dollars do you suggest that the land of Australia is worth?
You cant turn back time!
Gus, it doesn't matter how much the land of Australia is worth. You cant turn back time and everybody knows it. This is the problem as I see it, people seem to only be able to consider or be able to work with the extremes.
What about all sides accepting the situation as it is and the position of all parties and working out a compromise. Then a good idea would be to sit down with the Aboriginal people and really discuss the issues and agree on some sort of settlement that is sensible and reasonable given their circumstances and situation with both sides taking a fair share of responsibility for the situation. I think you would be surprised how reasonable the majority of people are when they feel supported, respected and understood and how quickly attitudes turn positive and things turn around. Aboriginal people know that we are not directly responsible for what originally happened to them, it was before our time, but we sure are directly responsible for assisting in keeping them there and the cover up. This fear that the Aboriginal people will not be able to be reasonable about what happened to them and will not be prepared to take any responsibility for their situation and will want to take all the land we paid for, sue us for billions and throw us in the slums is stopping us from moving forward. Aboriginal people are just like us they really do just want a safe, warm and caring home in which to live and bring up their children. They want their kids to be happy and healthy and to receive a good education so that they can succeed, we are not different!
We should all be smarter than that. I think that our Government is supporting and creating disadvantaged areas and people and to me that means that they are failing in their duty of care regardless - if they know about it and they don’t fix it then its negligence.
we are responsible
Jolanda, we all need to say "I'm Sorry", because your statement of: "Aboriginal people know that we are not directly responsible for what originally happened to them ..." is incorrect.
I as a white person know that I am personally to blame for the down trodden because I am part of this present society and I have signed the "Sorry" book.
I feel sorry for all disadvantaged people including myself because I myself, have no job and no future. I feel sorry for me and therefore I feel sorry for all people who are disadvantaged. There is no compassion for anyone these days. Wherever on the 'success ladder' everyone should have compassion for those on the rungs beneath them.
I feel sorry for the single mothers who Peter Costello have just strung up, Aboriginals or anyone like the disabled who Costello says are bludgers with bad backs. Without compassion for others we will all spin apart and society will be rich in money and poor in character.
The Labor Party was once the party of the pensioner. Labor has lost its way, because it is going after the same people the Liberal Party are trying to hold onto, the people with money.
The government knows nothing of the disadvantaged. They are negligent.
Re: we are responsible
Len, Didn't you read on? I said that whilst I believed we were not directly responsible for what "originally" happened as it was before our time, I believed we certainly were responsible for continuing to allow it to happen and covering up.
I really dont understand what you mean about you being personally to blame for the trodden down except maybe that it might be your way of taking some responsiblitity for the situation that you find yourself in.
Maybe you can explain it to me so that I can get it.
It is black and white
Jolanda, we are responsible right back to 1788. It was at that point our irresponibility began and was handed down from generation to generation to today.
To stop our mistreatment of Aborigines we must take responsiblity for the whole 200 years otherwise we have what we have today treating Aborigines as second-class citizens as we do now.
They have very poor health compared to whites, poor education, poor motivation, poor living conditions, most live on welfare and a lot abuse alcohol and we don't see all that because we chooses not to see it. When we see it we say it is their fault. We are blind instead of being compassionate.
When special visitors come to Australia, do we pride our black brothers as artists and intelligent beings? No! We tell them to strip off and splash ochre over them and for them to dress like they were like 200 years ago and dance for us with primitive music and hop around and jump up and down like kangaroos.
When vistors come to Australia do we line all the single mothers up and tell them to act like single mothers and put their children to their breasts and suckle their babies and to swing their children around all because they are not married? No. There is stigma to single mothers and they are not even treated like Aborigines. Single mothers have white skin.
So you can see how far down the status chain Aborigines are. They are down the well at the very bottom, and then we look in the mirror and say we are not racist. John Howard has stopped Chinese boat people coming to Australia because they are poor in their own country. But if they were rich we would welcome them. Yothi Yindi is a great Aboriginal band and they tour Australia and make lots of money but most Australians won't accept the Aborigines of Redfern.
Re: black and white
Len, If I was born in 1964 and came to Australia in 1967 how can I be responsible for what happened in 1788.
Until the Aboriginal people realise that it is unreasonable to expect us as individuals to accept blame for what happened 200 years the sooner the matter can be rectified. I think you will find that the majority of Australians do sympathise and have compassion, the problem is that they just dont want to be blamed for something that they themselves didn't do.
Sure the problem has been ongoing but I believe that the problem goes both ways and that Aboriginal communities are also neglecting and mistreating themselves and using their past as an excuse. They too need to take some responsiblity. Aboriginal people are not the only ones that are on welfare and have health issues and alcohol issues alot of white people suffer these problems too and some of them are also disadvantaged. There are lots of shades of grey, its not really just black and white.
I thought the Aboriginal people were proud of their culture, I didn't realise that they were forced to dance their tribal dances at special gatherings. Maybe you could tell me where you got that information from and what the would like to do instead.
Jung-Myers-Briggs Personality Test
Jolanda, you are a schoolteacher. I was married to a schoolteacher for 29 years and had a hell of a time.
I suggest you do the Jung-Myers-Briggs Personality Test and it will come out in that test why schoolteachers think differently to me and why you don't like my answers.
Re: Personality test
Len, firstly I am not a school teacher and comparing me to your wife is really unproductive as it takes two to tango. I am a mother and a partner in a small business that my husband and I established and before that I was a secretary. I have known my husband for 26 years, we were childhood sweethearts, and we have been married for 16 years and we are very happily married with 4 children there is no "hell of a time happening here".
You didn't bother to say what you came out as in the test so as to allow me the opportunity to see if in fact we are so different. You also didn't bother to tell me what result you thought I would achieve.
I am mearly presenting a different angle and a different view, I didn't realise that I was obliged to like your answers.
Judgment Day
Jolanda, I am non-judgmental in all spheres. I have worked with derelicts, drug-addicts, alcoholics, street kids, the disadvantaged, the poor, homosexuals, the mentally-ill, Aboriginals, a quadraplegic, the blind and the schitzophrenic. We are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Business does not even come on my radar screen. Next to all that I love nature and walk in the rainforest. To me a tree is god. We will never agree on anything.
What comes out on the Myers-Briggs test are that teachers score very high in being judgmental when the myth is that they are not judgmental.
Matthew 7:1
Len, I can't believe that you can say that you are non judgmental in all spheres and then go on to state without knowing me that we are at opposite ends of the spectrum and that we will never agree on anything! I believe that comment to be judgmental and racist. Could you please explain to me why you would say that. I would like to try to understand why you think you are so special and I am so worthless?
I have experienced drug addicts, one close cousin even died from a heroin overdose, I know alcoholics and even some gamblers, we have had a cousin commit suicide, I know kids that are on the streets, I know people who are disadvantaged, we are victims of discrimination, misconduct and bias. We have single mothers in our close family, we have divorced mothers, my nieces father is in a wheelchair, my son has a physical disability, I have 4 children that do not fit the bell-curve, I know homosexuals and I have dealt with and am dealing with people and situations that cause psychological/emotional and mental issues and distress.
I love nature but I do not think the trees are God, I believe that God is the goodness within us. I don’t understand why you think we are so different.
Maybe you need to broaden your horizons and realise that everybody deals with issues. Nobody handed us our business on a silver platter. We had our money and life issues just like anybody else and we went out and created our business utilizing our strengths and talents (our education was poor) and whilst we were setting it up and getting established we were grateful for the Family Payment system of allowance that the Government gave us that helped us put food on the table for our children and pay our bills until we could support ourselves. We haven’t been on a holiday for 16 years.
Business should come into your radar screen otherwise you wont move from the place you are at. Australia provides lots of opportunities. Why do those that label themselves “disadvantaged
Jolanda and Len
Jolanda and Len, I've got only one thing to say to you two.
Can I borrow twenty bucks?
Please?
Twenty bucks
Hi Andrew, let's make it $40 and I'll go to the pub with you.
Myers-Briggs Typing Inventory
Crikey, Len, if that's what you got out of your MBTI, then you'd better take a refresher. Pay the bucks for the full test, not the cutdown on-line versions.
MBTI includes a category they label 'Judgment', but it sure is not anything to do with being 'judgmental'. "Judging includes the processes of coming to conclusions about what has been perceived."( Gifts Differing, page 1). It's a tool for enabling people to understand how they can work better with each other, especially in groups.
TG can't read
TG! What is a Typing Inventory. I have never heard of it.
I said the FULL Myers-Briggs Personality Test in hardcopy form at university adjudicated by a the university. It took hours to complete.
You and Jolanda make a good pair as you don't seem to understand too much and misunderstand much of what is written. Maybe your test TG is a five-minute one pager on the internet. Mine was in book form.
My link, not Len's
Hey TG and Len, I thought I should reveal that I found a link to the Myers-Briggs thingy and added it to Len's original post on the matter to be helpful. If there is a link to a better version, someone let me know. But although I have very little idea of such personality tests, and not as much interest in them as I have in, say, mangos or single malt whiskey (all respect to you guys), I take responsibility for the link as it stands. Gulp.
Naughty
You are a tease, Hamish.
Let me just finish by stating that, as an ISTP, I love that kind of analytical gizmo. Other people I know very well couldn't care less. We could probably divide humanity into a bipolar assortment - those who like sorting people into groups, and those who don't. There is a possible weakness in this approach, if it doesn't define who keeps the contents of the refrigerator in order.
My Idea
Well, firstly I'd like to say that I am a student in the public school system in QLD and I'm not allowed to change my school uniform for religion, individuality or any other reason. I don't like my uniform but I know it's there for a reason. I think that if other students have to wear a school uniform so should Yasamin. If she wishes to live in Australia with the same rights and oportunites as other Australians then why is it so hard to wear a school uniform. I don't believe double standards are fair and it's certainly not discrimination to dress as the rest of the school does. If I were to travel to Iraq and wear what I do at home I would be killed for it. Where is the ant-discrimination board to protect me there? Hasn't she ever heard: when in Rome, do as Romans do!
exemptocracy
file a complaint
Why don't you file an official complaint?
Just do it!
A Uniform start
Carol, I have just seen on TV, children who don't go to school and they waste their time doing nothing because society has given children 'rights' to waste their time and to snub their noses at their parents. The children's parents have given up fighting the system that has given children "rights". These children are very intelligent, but they wre described as "stupid" because they are so young and inexperinced in life.
I believe all children's rights should be taken away.
Carol, I don't care if you like your uniform or hate it. It does not matter to me and I would take every right you have away so all you do is go to school and learn about life until you think of things that are more important than liking or not liking your uniform.
When men go into the army, they strip that man of everything, they cut his hair extra short, they take his clothes away and they put him in a uniform and the Army starts from scratch to teach that man how to kill and how to stay alive. That Carol is what school is about. It teaches you how to progress in society and to learn how to contribute to society and to your own happiness.
Stuff the uniform, Carol.
The uniform is to make sure that you are exactly the same as your peers, and it is up to you whether they learn more than you or you learn more than them, to have a happy and productive life.
For Real
My children have rights
Re: children's rights
Len, I am truly sorry that you are suffering such heartache without your daughters.
I don't, however, think it's fair to blame things on the fact that children have rights. There are always two sides to a story and sometimes three or more.
If children don't want to go to a home, they have their reasons. Sometimes the reasons are not reasonable, sometimes they are. What you believe depends on which way you are looking at it and who it is that is looking at it. Things are seldom black and white.
Children are little adults, they think, they feel and they understand more than they are given credit for and they are entitled to their opinion and their rights. The problem is that there is no discipline or Laws that are enforcable and many children are exposed to so much negativity in the home so the balance isn't there and therefore children are not being guided or taught well and they seem to struggle to find their way. When there is no direction or discipline there will always be those that will be led down the wrong path, lose their way and/or abuse.
It's human nature; they learn it from the adults!. Children are individuals and it's only when adults try to make them think the way they want them to think and behave as "robots" or "puppets" that they rebel. We need to have a different method and approach in bringing up children. One that is based on mutal respect and understanding.
Rubbish
This was not for Gus
I have got quite a few ideas on that subject since I have visited a few remote communities, but I will not express my point of view yet. In a week or so, may be ... sorry.
Sorry Gus
Sorry Gus. I am getting confused. The way the posts come on sometimes confuse me, but I really should have checked properly before I pressed the button.
I would be interested to hear what you find or feel as I have only been exposed to some information and I would like to try to understand all sides and views.
Good on you Jolanda
Nor do I have grief with people's beliefs but I have a beef when these beliefs interfere with the political system. As mentioned in a US citizen quote in one of my blogs, the fathers of the American Constitution would turn in their graves to see what was being done to it. Religious believers they were, but first and foremost secular men they were.